At least according to Rick Warren…
Roger from A-Team blog quotes Rick Warren from an interview he did in a response to the Reveal study. Here’s how Rick Warren responded:
Of course I’ve read the Reveal Study. The biggest mistake that the church has made is we think sermons will produce spiritual maturity… They will not. Bill Hybels is one of the greatest preachers in history… They forget 95% of what they hear within 72 hours. Well if you’re forgetting 95% of everything you’ve heard in your lifetime, that is not going to produce spiritual maturity… Jesus had a process by which he took people from no faith in Christ to be disciples… First public words of Jesus, what he says to his disciples, is he says, “Come and see”… Now that’s the entry point for faith… “Come and see.” What’s the commitment level of “Come and see”? Nothing. Just show up… Sit in the back- don’t sing anything, say anything, sacrifice anything. Jesus never left them there and… from “Come and see” he took them through consistent steps, and all through the three and a half years of ministry he’s turning up the heat. And as they begin to follow him, he starts saying, “Now, you’re my disciple if,” and he redefines commitment. “You’re my disciple if you love one another.” Right before the cross he turns around to them and he says, “If you’re going to follow me, you gotta take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me.” Now, would you agree that there’s a huge difference in commitment between “come and see” and “come and die”?…We can’t give pat answers anymore. People say, “Well if you just pray and love people and preach the word, your church will grow.”… That’s just not true… Somebody needs to stand up. I know a lot of guys who pray more than I do and their church is dying. It takes more than prayer to grow a church. Ecclesiastes 10:10 says if the ax is dull and its edge is unsharpened, more strength is needed. But skill will give success. Skill. It doesn’t say dedication will give success. It doesn’t say sincerity will give success. It doesn’t say preaching the word and loving people will give success. It says skill… You know if you go out fishing, sometimes in the middle of the day you have to change bait. Because what the fish were biting on in the mornings they’re not biting on in the afternoon or evening. And what we’re doing in a lot of churches we’re using baits and hooks from the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and it’s the 21st century.
I guess it depends on what ‘growth’ means. Does growth mean spiritual growth and discipleship or does it mean merely numbers. It’s true, sometimes in the Lord’s wisdom even when there is faithfulness in preaching and prayer, there might not be numerical growth (see John 6:60-66). However, numerical growth does not necessarily mean spiritual growth which is a common mistake that the megachurch movement has often made. If we were to base spiritual growth on numerical growth, then Joel Osteen’s church, a church that preaches a prosperity Gospel, would be the most advanced church spiritually-speaking.
Great post but I really think that you’re committing a logical fallacy which could crudely called a ‘false dichotomy.’ I don’t know how you can come up with the conclusion that pastor Warren is COMPLETELY disregarding the importance of preaching and prayer. If you were to talk to him, I would bet my allegiance to the Dodgers, Lakers, and Cal football that what he’s saying is that it is that (preaching and prayer) and much more other things that are vital to seeing a spiritually healthy church. The common problem I see in the Christian arena is that believers tend to find some kind of comfort in labels - that person is a Calvinist, so-and-so is an Arminian, he’s southern Baptist, she’s one of those Presbyterians. I personally think that such endeavors are narrow-minded and spiritually unhealthy. Assumptions are made about people, the person making those assumptions become arrogant, and the people who are the object of those assumptions become demonized, if not shown pitied (Don’t you find this sentence a bit ironic?). Such labels leads believers on these endless, fruitless paths of debating and affirming one’s theological positions/doctrines. It’s a waste of God’s time.
Mark, thanks for commenting. May I answer a few of your objections? You wrote:
“You’re committing a logical fallacy which could crudely called a ‘false dichotomy.’ I don’t know how you can come up with the conclusion that pastor Warren is COMPLETELY disregarding the importance of preaching and prayer.”
First, I don’t know where you see a ‘logical fallacy’ and a ‘false dichotomy.’ I never once said in my post that my conclusion was that Rick Warren COMPLETELY disregards the importance of preaching and prayer. I talked about Rick Warren’s assumption that preaching and prayer are not enough to produce spiritual maturity. I begged to differ with him because my argument was that biblical preaching and prayer COULD produce spiritual maturity but that did not necessarily equate greater numbers. I fail to see where I ever stated that I believed Rick Warren completely disregarded the importance preaching and prayer.
Now I’m not sure if that’s what you’re talking about when you’re talking about a false dichotomy or logical fallacies. I’m having trouble understanding your logic. Please let me know what you mean.
You also wrote:
“I would bet my allegiance to the Dodgers, Lakers, and Cal football that what he’s saying is that it is that (preaching and prayer) and much more other things that are vital to seeing a spiritually healthy church.”
The thing is, that is not what he stated. He said: “The biggest mistake that the church has made is we think sermons will produce spiritual maturity… They will not.” I’m going to take him at his word when he says that sermons do NOT produce spiritual maturity. He didn’t talk about the “much more other things” that you state he would say.
Lastly, you wrote:
“The common problem I see in the Christian arena is that believers tend to find some kind of comfort in labels - that person is a Calvinist, so-and-so is an Arminian, he’s southern Baptist, she’s one of those Presbyterians. I personally think that such endeavors are narrow-minded and spiritually unhealthy. Assumptions are made about people, the person making those assumptions become arrogant, and the people who are the object of those assumptions become demonized, if not shown pitied (Don’t you find this sentence a bit ironic?).”
I agree to a point. If those labels are only meant to be arrogantly antagonistic and ungracious, then I agree. But by your very statement of saying assumptions are made by people, you are making an assumption. You are assuming that if you believe in doctrine (or as you but it, ‘find some comfort in labels,’ a person is arrogant. In other words, we should accept people on the basis of relative truth rather than absolute truth. Absolute truth can still be a humble orthodoxy. But without absolute truth, what’s the purpose of Scripture, preaching, the church? Arrogance is found in those who believe in doctrine and those who want to do away with it. It’s the reality of human sinfulness (Romans 3:23).
Mark, thanks for writing and for expressing your thoughts. I have a feeling we could debate this for hours. But may I leave you with this. Doctrine from Scripture, which we believe is THE absolute truth, is something we are always doing. By making your very statements, you are holding a position, a theology, an epistemology. When a woman tells me that she has just miscarried her child, she reverts back to doctrine. She must now wrestle with who her God is, what is the purpose of suffering, the difference between good and evil, and where her child is now. Suddenly, those labels which are really the way you interpret people for the purpose of sanctification and edification, matter. Suddenly, they’re no longer labels but the filter by which you comfort a grieving woman. So though you might have a different biblical position, I hope at the very least we can both agree that Scripture is our standard and doctrine (aka your labels) is vital to one’s spiritual health.