I am thankful for this conversation. It does make me see that there is much to learn, to grow, and to be humble about even when assessing others and the things they write. I bet if I met JEld, there would be much I would consider good thinking. But I still do believe that his book leaves me still wanting. You said:

I understand that he’s NOT a theologian, not writing for a peer-reviewed journal, and he doesn’t teach for a seminary. He used those words to a general male audience that is precariously sitting on the fence of what it means to be Christian, and really “get it�.

BUt that’s just it. For me theology is meaningless if if does not teach the church about the power and weight of the Gospel. But when it does do those things, then theology is exactly what the layperson needs to hear and understand. So maybe the issue for me is that I do not see a dichotomy between RIGHT theology and the application it has to life. Whereas your perspective from this quote and previous points of discussion is that JEld is not a theologian. I know he isn’t one, per se. But when he talks about salvation, he’s talking about the Bible. He is explaining and expositing Scripture. And so in a sense, he is a theologian. He just happens to be one that espouses something that leaves me thirsting for so much more.

I know your JEld tank is empty. So is mine. Phew!!!! David, thanks for your conversation. Boy, you definitely made me think and that is a very good thing. Thanks for your honesty and humility and earnestness in our discussion. I and I hope others are blessed by it.

Boy, you’d figure we could wrap this up somewhere, don’t you think?! (Just kidding).

I’m sure with thousands of words we’ve written back and forth, we’ve perhaps past each other a couple times on the points we were trying to make.

In regards to the now-infamous “BIG LIE” passage, I can see your problem. I really do. Really. I get it. No, really. I got it. However (huge breath), I think if you ever met John Eldredge and had coffee with him, I think you would be fine with him (you might even like him!) and could move on to the guy that wrote that “The Open-ness of God” CRAP.

Here’s the thing, I’m sure you can understand why I don’t find it easy to criticize Eldredge — This book has meant something to me, I’ve spent 4 days listening to him speak, I’ve read a few of his books, and I receive his newsletter, yada yada yada…in other words, I’ve gotten a glimpse of his heart. So I feel like I understand where he’s coming from. So perhaps that’s why it doesn’t bother me as much. I understand that he’s NOT a theologian, not writing for a peer-reviewed journal, and he doesn’t teach for a seminary. He used those words to a general male audience that is precariously sitting on the fence of what it means to be Christian, and really “get it”. Sure, its romanticized…sure, he creates tension, whatever. His point was to drive me to see that I should get off my duff and get into the game, why? Because maybe what the church is telling me isn’t compelling enough? OK, maybe it’s POSSIBLE that whatever churches (not your church, Sam!) are saying isn’t enough to reinvigorate men into manning their positions and wrestling with what Christ is asking of them.

Of course the language is supposed to be offensive! He’s calling the church out about not kicking men into gear. Isn’t that a real issue? I mean, aren’t most men more passionate about football than God? Aren’t men more fascinated with boobs than bibles? What do you expect him to say to spark this conversation? Churches are doing everything right but you still won’t listen!? You don’t have good doctrine!? You are a sinner saved by grace! Don’t you know how frickin’ awesome that is!?

Sarcasm aside, I think it’s a very natural assertion for John Eldredge to make here that maybe what you’ve heard in church, you’ve misinterpreted, not heard quite right, or something. I know he’s doing some theological hotwiring to get there, and there’s a lot of face-painting and encouraging to get “wild” and whatever… but I think Eldredge is a good writer who pulls it off quite well trying to bring back the reader to seeking God out. A writer, I must emphasize, a writer…

I dont know if Eldredge blogs at all, but I bet he would agree with your review actually, I’m sure he knows by now 5 years later, he’s got more than his share of “haters”, I guess the only problem is that he can’t take back the however many hundreds of thousands he’s already sold. So perhaps we’ll see if he beefs up for his next book or perhaps finds an editor that is going to tee him up on inflammatory statements like that BIG LIE he told.

The simple fact of the matter is I don’t find his book dangerous or harmful. If a fellow believer told me that he read it, I would ask him what he thought and suggest more books for him to read, then I would move on. Now if someone told me they read Elaine Pagels or something, I would really sit down and get to the bottom of the deal right there if I could.

Now Sam, if you want the last word on this, that’s fine by me…I think I don’t have much more gas in my John Eldredge tank!

David, someone in my church told me he had read our whole conversation. And he said that as we spoke, we were making our points without listening to one another’s points. So I thought I would try to answer AND listen to your points. Hehe. You know what? I don’t know if it’s possible. But here it goes any way:

I think the BIG LIE point for me, David, was just indicative of how JEld views Scripture. I know you’re saying look at the context. But the thing is he uses such strong words to make his point, a point that is what I believe terribly wrong (there, I used a strong word as well). I just feel as though for JEld, this is a very problematic pattern he has.

Sam, I agree with you again that Eldredge plays fast and loose. I guess that’s where I’m very Calvinist in my nature, in terms of the fact that God will use imperfect mediums to relay a perfect message. That is one of the wonders of God’s sovereignty and calling. I remember one pastor who once confessed that he got saved watching “Jesus Christ Superstar”. I don’t know how in the world that happened, but obviously it didn’t remain there and God continued to draw him. And here again, I think Eldredge’s audience is toward the very margins of church anyway, which would explain why the book is such a hit. I think it is for the home church pastor to rein this book in and establish “the grid” for it as you say. I’m not saying that I enjoyed the book for its adherence to the grid, I’m saying that it has an appeal for a reason and while it’s more milk than meat, hopefully you can see my point of view as well that it is a book that deserves to have been written and read, as opposed to never having been written at all.

As for the “BIG LIE” passage, I can see your problem with it, but I think that you have to take into account the greater context, the point that he is trying to point out that the fact that many churches STOP at the part, that we are sinners saved by grace, and that we are nothing more. Eldredge’s point is that churches do not continue to tell us that we have access to new life, a new heart, the title of friend, and son, etc. etc. So his point, and you still may have a problem with it, is that if you say that you are sinner saved by grace, but do not tell them that salvation puts them on the path being a new creation, a saint, a royal priesthood…then it is a lie, in that it is a partial truth and not a whole one, which is why his words, “nothing more” are important.

Now, the funny thing is, I don’t even care THIS much to keep the apology of Wild At Heart up. I mean, I believe it’s evident that the book has borne good fruit in my life and in the lives of at least half-a-dozen others. But I don’t consider this book foundational in my faith. I mean, I don’t consider the first girlfriend I had in 8th grade to be foundational in my current marriage either, but I’m sure it made a difference and it taught me something along the way. All that to say, I perhaps feel so willing to offer some sort of advocacy for the book, is that sure, the book might have buck teeth and braces, big glasses and nappy hair, but for one season in my life, she was beautiful and I really, really liked her.

By the way, thanks for the invite and should I be in the SF area, I will definitely drop you a line. Please do the same if you’re ever in Atlanta. It looks like Billy and I would be eager to greet you.

I’ll be back within a few days.