Comments on: Sorry, Korea Is Not Biblical Israel http://www.wccc.net/blogs/gospelprism/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/ Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:29:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: admin http://www.wccc.net/blogs/gospelprism/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-192 admin Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:23:29 +0000 http://www.samshua.com/blog/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-192 John, I have been commenting on a site dealing with this issue that you can read <a href="http://dpark.wordpress.com/2006/06/05/ten-unique-korean-virtues-that-ems-arent-teaching-our-kids-but-should-be-part-3/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. It's funny because I feel as though from the KM side, I need to point out the Independent church (KA) perspective. But you're right; I think multiculturalism is the new girl in town getting all of the attraction, because in a pluralistic world like ours, it dominates everything. Absolutely, the church universal is multi-cultural, as evidenced by Revelation 4-7 where every tribe and nation will be represented. But we have this idea that that will look like black, white, yellow, and brown equally spaced out before the throne of Jesus. Could it be that maybe this might be the case sometimes and then in other times there will be a bunch of whites, and a bunch of browns, and a bunch of blacks together, but completely loving of all others around the throne of Christ, and that that is not evil incarnate? I hope our church is first trying to reach anyone who would hear the Gospel, and we would be faithful to that. I would also hope we would not compromise the Gospel at all by wanting MC (multi-culturalism) so much, that we water down that message. And therein lies the danger. As for Sov Grace, John, we're still in the process. I'm teaching on the Charismatic gifts this summer, then in Sept., our members will vote as to whether we're going to move forward with Sov Grace or back off completely. John, I have been commenting on a site dealing with this issue that you can read here. It’s funny because I feel as though from the KM side, I need to point out the Independent church (KA) perspective. But you’re right; I think multiculturalism is the new girl in town getting all of the attraction, because in a pluralistic world like ours, it dominates everything. Absolutely, the church universal is multi-cultural, as evidenced by Revelation 4-7 where every tribe and nation will be represented. But we have this idea that that will look like black, white, yellow, and brown equally spaced out before the throne of Jesus. Could it be that maybe this might be the case sometimes and then in other times there will be a bunch of whites, and a bunch of browns, and a bunch of blacks together, but completely loving of all others around the throne of Christ, and that that is not evil incarnate? I hope our church is first trying to reach anyone who would hear the Gospel, and we would be faithful to that. I would also hope we would not compromise the Gospel at all by wanting MC (multi-culturalism) so much, that we water down that message. And therein lies the danger.

As for Sov Grace, John, we’re still in the process. I’m teaching on the Charismatic gifts this summer, then in Sept., our members will vote as to whether we’re going to move forward with Sov Grace or back off completely.

]]> By: Pochax http://www.wccc.net/blogs/gospelprism/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-191 Pochax Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:51:37 +0000 http://www.samshua.com/blog/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-191 i have to agree with you sam...it almost seems to be just an issue of "thank God for the great gift He has given thru Korean christianity" but don't equate it to the only ordained way He plans to gather His people - a question for you personally: do you think multiculturalism is OVERemphasized or UNDERemphasized in 2nd-generation circles? oh, and how is the process of becoming a SGM church going? i have to agree with you sam…it almost seems to be just an issue of “thank God for the great gift He has given thru Korean christianity” but don’t equate it to the only ordained way He plans to gather His people - a question for you personally: do you think multiculturalism is OVERemphasized or UNDERemphasized in 2nd-generation circles? oh, and how is the process of becoming a SGM church going?

]]> By: admin http://www.wccc.net/blogs/gospelprism/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-190 admin Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:26:35 +0000 http://www.samshua.com/blog/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-190 David, thanks for that link. I knwo someone who really respects Ken Sande and his ministry, and it is someone who I trust very much. So that's great to hear. I have no doubt that Pastor Foley's intentions are as you say there are. I make this point about Israel and Korea not because of his article, per se, but because there is this Korea-is-the-greatest-Christian-country-in-the-world ethos in Korean circles simply because their churches are the largest. I believe Pastor Foley clearly notes that KAs are losing out because the churches in Korea are large and we are not drawing from there. But I do not think this is a biblical point. Also, I would note that in Pastor Foley's application of Jacob and Esau, as progenitors of God's covenant promise and rejection, he makes the link between Jacob and the Korean Church. And since he makes that link through that text (which I believe is an eisogetical point), I am simply using that logic to continue the allegory. David, I want to believe that KMs and KM ministry has a vision not for EMs of THEIR church to thrive, but a vision for Christ's Kingdom to thrive (even if that means EMs spin off to be independent churches). But that takes a real open heart vision for such a thing. It takes something that I know Koreans are known for, sacrifice. I just feel that Pastor Foley's critique of independent churches is far one-sided and it leaves out the negatives of what he calls the 'EM model.' David, thanks for that link. I knwo someone who really respects Ken Sande and his ministry, and it is someone who I trust very much. So that’s great to hear.

I have no doubt that Pastor Foley’s intentions are as you say there are. I make this point about Israel and Korea not because of his article, per se, but because there is this Korea-is-the-greatest-Christian-country-in-the-world ethos in Korean circles simply because their churches are the largest. I believe Pastor Foley clearly notes that KAs are losing out because the churches in Korea are large and we are not drawing from there. But I do not think this is a biblical point. Also, I would note that in Pastor Foley’s application of Jacob and Esau, as progenitors of God’s covenant promise and rejection, he makes the link between Jacob and the Korean Church. And since he makes that link through that text (which I believe is an eisogetical point), I am simply using that logic to continue the allegory.

David, I want to believe that KMs and KM ministry has a vision not for EMs of THEIR church to thrive, but a vision for Christ’s Kingdom to thrive (even if that means EMs spin off to be independent churches). But that takes a real open heart vision for such a thing. It takes something that I know Koreans are known for, sacrifice.

I just feel that Pastor Foley’s critique of independent churches is far one-sided and it leaves out the negatives of what he calls the ‘EM model.’

]]> By: David Park http://www.wccc.net/blogs/gospelprism/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-189 David Park Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:10:57 +0000 http://www.samshua.com/blog/2006/06/06/sorry-korea-is-not-biblical-israel/#comment-189 Sam, I agree with many points in your commentary on Foley's article. One thing that I think is important to keep in mind is the audience for which the article is written: largely immigrant church pastors. Obviously, it's extraordinarily flattering that someone non-Korean pays a great deal of respect to Korean churches. While I haven't spoken to Eric Foley myself, I doubt he would go as far as to say that Koreans are somehow on the same level as biblical Israel, after all, he isn't a part of Peacemaker Ministries as coincidence. He's seen firsthand conflicts in the Korean community. There was a Korean article floating around here: http://mkosior.com/tgng/?p=458 Personally, I feel as though he is calling on many KMs to be more involved with EMs; and because the Korean culture is the key thread in that, it's the primary vehicle for that discussiion to take place. Not to say that I agree with all that entails, but I'm just suggesting that there is a valid place for some of the things he's saying, although not all. Sam, I agree with many points in your commentary on Foley’s article. One thing that I think is important to keep in mind is the audience for which the article is written: largely immigrant church pastors. Obviously, it’s extraordinarily flattering that someone non-Korean pays a great deal of respect to Korean churches. While I haven’t spoken to Eric Foley myself, I doubt he would go as far as to say that Koreans are somehow on the same level as biblical Israel, after all, he isn’t a part of Peacemaker Ministries as coincidence. He’s seen firsthand conflicts in the Korean community. There was a Korean article floating around here: http://mkosior.com/tgng/?p=458

Personally, I feel as though he is calling on many KMs to be more involved with EMs; and because the Korean culture is the key thread in that, it’s the primary vehicle for that discussiion to take place. Not to say that I agree with all that entails, but I’m just suggesting that there is a valid place for some of the things he’s saying, although not all.

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